Showing posts with label Creationism. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Creationism. Show all posts

Thursday, February 10, 2011

Evidence from the Universe

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Many of you are inclined to cite a lot of scientific evidence for the non-existence of God. This is the folly of the author of this video, who suggests that the Kepler astronomical orbiter proves something for Christians. It is a great video production, however its initial and final conclusions are flawed. They are:
1. Scientific arguments. The existence of a multitude of 'Earth-like' planets is going to make a difference to Christian belief - it won't. Anyone who has debated a great many Christians will find that they are impervious to reason. Why? They use it sparingly in the context of God. Their repudiation of logic is quite simply repression. They repress evidence which is contrary to their believe. They have the infallible capacity to deny reality, and to define it in terms of 'non-existence', or 'other existences', just as this guy suggests their are 'other Earths' or a person with multiple personalities creates other identities.
2. Humility. The guy in the final moments of the video advances the virtue of 'humility'. He is implying that the smallness of humanity is reason enough to feel 'humble'. The reality however is that the vastness of the universe, as difficult as it might be to comprehend, is not grounds for humility, but in fact opportunity. Look how far humanity has come in 3,000 years...given the universe has evolved (since the last Big Bang) over billions of years. Humanity (as a pspecies) is in fact amazing! Unfortunately, we spend most of our lives invested in immortality of the collectivist styles which manifested from religion, then socialism.

Humility is an act of self-repudiation...so fundamentally the producer of this guy agrees with Christianity. Belief is god is a side issue...if not god, they would still be self-loathing. There is no justification for collective 'self-loathing'. I don't even think people have good reason for personal responsibility in a world which possesses such confusing values. It is no wonder that so many fall prey to crime, low self-esteem and the 'temptation' of immoral acts. The Christian failure to utilise their rational faculty (i.e. faith is repudiation of logic since it is acceptance of ideas without evidence) is the ultimate in immorality, but it is a defiance of their nature, not of some God.
I can't help watching this video and feel excited by the opportunity. Humanity is so worried about polluting this 'Earthily environment", and its their values which cause the problem ultimately, and at the end of the day, there are thousands of plausible Earths out their upon which humanity might be able to settle.
haha...That won't stop Christianity....interestingly his final statement was in support of "humility"....which is self-repudiation...so fundamentally the producer of this guy agrees with Christianity. Belief is god is a side issue...if not god, they would still be self-loathing.
See the video.
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Andrew Sheldon www.sheldonthinks.com

Friday, September 3, 2010

Everyone is wrong - except me

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Religious leaders in Britain have lashed out at Steven Hawking as he sought to debunk a religious explanation for the creation of the universe. My conclusion - they are both wrong. Let us consider their arguments:
Hawking says that given the existence of gravity, "the universe can and will create itself from nothing" according to an excerpt published in The Times of London.
This is nonsense. Matter does not spontaneously evolve from nothing, it transforms from another form of matter, a matter than is far more dense and thus relatively smaller.
The head of the Church of England, the Archbishop of Canterbury Dr. Rowan Williams, told the Times that "physics on its own will not settle the question of why there is something rather than nothing".
Actually he is right. Physics will not answer that question because science seeks to explain things in terms of causation, and there is no causation. Even non-Christians seem to be mystified by this question, of what caused the universe or matter. The answer is NOTHING. There is no cause...there is no starting point. The universe has always existed. The Big Bang was not the start of the universe, it was merely a fragment in time in which matter underwent massive, but not unprecedented change. I am suggesting that the universe has undergone periods of collapse and re-birth. Gravity provided the momentum for its collapse, and instability (i.e. nuclear fission) provided the basis for its ultimate expansion.
"Belief in God is not about plugging a gap in explaining how one thing relates to another within the Universe. It is the belief that there is an intelligent, living agent on whose activity everything ultimately depends for its existence".
True again. Religion is not about providing rationalisations for reconciling facts and faith. In truth religion and science are incompatible. Science seeks to develop a rational framework for understanding the universe, whilst religious wants people to accept a certain dogma on faith, which involves acceptance despite or without reference to facts. Any resolution offered by science could only diminish your faith, and therefore your virtue.
An intelligent god? Well that is just the unqualified dogma.
Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said: "Science is about explanation. Religion is about interpretation. The Bible simply isn't interested in how the Universe came into being".
This is not strictly correct. Science is about explanation. That much is true, but religion is not about interpreting, as that would involve reference to facts, arguments as well as analysis. Religion is about dogmatic assertion. We must understand that the 'power' or persistence of religion does not derive from its compelling arguments, it arises from people's insecurity, that they would find greater value in intrinsic values rather than objective values, which convey meaning, understanding and the need to earn them. It is those aspects of an objective universe which Christians want to renounce. They want religion not simply as a moral system. Its more fundamental than that. Their need for religion can arise at a more fundamental metaphysical to epistemological level.
"Hawking's god is a god-of-the-gaps used to plug present gaps in our scientific knowledge. "Science provides us with a wonderful narrative as to how [existence] may happen, but theology addresses the meaning of the narrative," he added.
There will always be gaps in science, whether fundamental or incidental. The contradiction that science makes to our life is incoherent because scientific inquiry in marred by poor values, of which religion is part of the toxic pool of diminished cognitive capacity. Anyone with a critical thought capacity (like myself) can find the flaws in religion and science (with may appear like a religion sometimes). We ought to recognise that 'idiot science' is a legacy of the thinking imparted by a religious based private school education, not to mention the public 'collectivist' school system, which ultimately has the same origins....thousands of years of religious self-loathing. The skepticism implied in the quote above is a testament to that.
There are of course those religious defenders who would see God as a passive 'designer' who, having made the universe sits back and derisively laughs at the idiots he created.
Fraser Watts, an Anglican priest and Cambridge expert in the history of science asserts:
"A creator God provides a reasonable and credible explanation of why there is a universe, and ... it is somewhat more likely that there is a God than that there is not".
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Andrew Sheldon www.sheldonthinks.com

Friday, March 19, 2010

Creation wisdom - the complex hypothesis (part 2)

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The Australian mallee fowl is a remarkable bird, but it is only one of many different creatures, and contrary to this Christians assertion, there are good reasons for accepting Evolution. Firstly, one species is not going to prove or disprove Evolution, and there are species with far more research than this Megapode. Regardless, the evidence ‘against’ Evolution solely based on this Christian’s assertion is not in itself CAUSE for believing in Creation. He does not offer any explanation for the Creation argument. Why does he even try? God demands faith not justification. Why did he have to research about the mallee fowl, when he should have simply accepted Creationism as a leap of faith.
Mallee fowl are certainly an oddity; building "nests" or mounds comprising soil, twigs, leaves, sand and organic matter. The mounds can grow to 17metres in diameter and several metres in height. All of these fowl build mounds for the females to lay up to 35 eggs per season. The purpose of the mounds is to provide safety for the eggs from predators, whether dingoes, snakes or any of the other predators which occupied Australia thousands to millions of years earlier.
The various species of megapod span from Australia to the Philippines. This covers climates contrasting from the hot, arid deserts of central Australia to the wet, rainforests of Indonesia. The author marvels at the sameness of the species despite the different conditions, and yet the factors are essentially the same. The mound size is likely the same because the birds are the same size, or their feet are the same.
The fowl uses its large feet to flick dirt or sand into or out of the centre of the mound in order to control the temperature of the eggs buried within. The author asks:
Which came first, incidentally, the big feet, or the big mounds?
The answer is – look at the historical ‘fossil’ record. The author conveniently ignores the fossil record. This species of fowl has existed for millions of years, and its far larger relatives have since died out. They likely died out because of the drying out of the climate, which made food scarce. Such processes happen slowly, so it’s apparent that climatic change favoured smaller animals with smaller appetites in a drier climate.
A researcher of megapodes remarks:
I find it remarkable that a bird is able to estimate the amount of organic matter it must add to a heap of soil so that the heat generated by fermentation is just enough to bridge the gap between the soil temperature and the temperature necessary for incubation.
This is not the thinking of a mallee fowl. This is the thinking of a human with a human researcher. For the fowl, it’s likely they have sensors in their beak or feet to estimate the temperature. Extra-sensory capacities in animals are commonplace. There are no ‘complex formulas’. Having conjured up some ‘complexity’ the author asks “Could they [the megapodes] have evolved all this through blind natural selection?”. The answer is yes, though it’s not so miraculous if you consider that the need to gauge temperature was probably always there, even if temperatures have changed. No doubt the success of the methodology has proved itself over the changes in climate.

The Australian mallee fowl of arid inland Australia has a more difficult task because in dry climates there is less moisture for leaf little to decompose. For this reason, the mallee fowl has to rely on the sun for heat rather than the heat released from decomposing plant matter. Stabilising temperatures in these climatic extremes sounds impressive, yet whilst outback Australia is hot, it is also very dry, so any shade from cloud or leaf litter substantially reduces the heat. Below the surface it is surprisingly cool. This is why Australia’s arid regions are rich in life. The surface temperature might range from 20-110ºF, however the subsoil temperature is far more consistent.

The author repudiates the evolutionist arguments for the development of the mallee fowl. The reality of species research is that such issues often are speculative, as there are millions of species, and the fossil record is not complete or fully understood for each species. Rest assured recent developments with the Genome Project will advance evolution a great deal, allowing us to make the hereditary path of each species.
It seems probable that the mallee fowl came to incubate its eggs to conceal the eggs from predatory animals. This explains why the fowl disperses its eggs among several mounds. It is its insurance policy. He simply stays in range of all the mounds to adjust their temperature as conditions demand.
The fowl starts building the mounds in May, and spends winter searching for leaf litter, before piling (i.e. flicking) on soil in August. The wetter winter can allow leaf litter to remain moist under the shade of added soil. The temperature in the mound begins to rise until mid-September when the female lays her first eggs. The eggs will hatch in early November, before the extreme heat of summer. During the entire incubation period, the male must regulate the temperature. The fowl keeps the temperature between 90-95ºF by altering the amount and type of mound cover. Heat is produced both by decomposition and the sun. If the eggs overheat, the mallee fowl simply piles more soil on the mound to insulates the eggs from the sun's heat. If the mound cools too much, the fowl can scatter the soil in the cool early morning air, only to collect it after the sun has reheated it. In arid regions, mostly the sun is shining. Any moisture helps to retain heat in the mound.

Mr. H. J. Frith, an expert on the mallee fowl, said:
"We thought it possible that all this temperature - control work could be merely part of a fixed behaviour pattern evolved by natural selection to suit the seasons".
The author equates this canny behaviour with ‘intelligence’, which it simply is not. It is simply an example of an animal correlating learning behaviour over thousands of years. It is probably that early eggs did not require heating (in a tropical climate), and were simply buried for protection from shelter as the parents searched for food during droughts. During climate extremes they likely made a correlation between dead eggs and colder weather. When climate change occurred, they simply adapted their behaviour to keep the eggs cool, and in the process developed a simply means of keeping the egg temperature stable.
The implication is that no GREAT INTELLIGENT GOD is required to explain the origin of fowls; just a critical and educated individual. Christians and other mystics have always relied on the ignorance and fear to spread their nonsense. This is no exception. The other tool of manipulation for various churches and cults is of course the practice of ‘love bombing’. Anyone who lacks confidence in their judgement, has been abused, neglected, i.e. denied validation, is vulnerable to a torrent of religious recruitment. Many get sucked in, and used as pawns for recruitment drives if not direct contributions.

The author asks “Why, if evolution is a fact, do birds of any given species build identical nests? And, if one type of nest supposedly evolved in-to another, why do we have such extreme diversity among different species?”
The answer is that only species which need to change have to change. If no advantage is rendered, no variant has a preference. Mounds are the same because the fowls critical features are the same. Also diurnal temperature variations in tropical climates is less extreme because of higher humidity; whilst the dry temperate climates render more extreme temperatures less harsh in the shade or underground.
The author asks:
“If one group of birds can survive with a "primitive" nest, why take the trouble to evolve into another kind? It doesn't make any sense”.
Hmmm...science doesn’t make sense but Christian assertion, which does not make sense, should be accepted without question. The reality is, if you lack knowledge, nothing makes sense. It’s amazing how many senseless topics become meaningful if you learn more material, adopt a critical mind and repudiate any unintelligible concepts like religion.
The question of whether fowls learn, are trained or have instincts is really a separate question from evolution, so it will be addressed elsewhere. How do animals attain the genes to adapt to new environments, like the drying out of the climate? According to the theory of natural selection, they slowly change in response to small genetic variations which give a certain variant natural advantages which are reinforced through reproduction if they are indeed critical to the survival of the species. The author highlights several theories for evolution; “some of them quite contradictory” apparently. In fact there is no need for any of them to be compatible as they are discrete ideas. These theories are:
1. The "Highly Specialized" Theory draws attention to the "highly specialized" habit of the mallee fowl, arguing that it is a legacy of the birds' reptilian ancestors. The author refuses to accept this. No explanation is given. The more explanation is that “ancestors of the present-day megapodes were ground-nesting birds that developed the habit of covering their eggs with sand or leaves when leaving the nest, as a protection against predators. Several present-day birds, in fact, do this ...” while the Australian climate and flora are gradually changing over thousands of years. The author is sceptical, but offers no contradictory evidence or justification for his pet theory – Creationism; which of course contradicts the fossil record.
2. The "Degenerate Bird" Theory proposed by George A. Clark, an ornithologist at Yale University, asserts that the fowl reverted to a more degenerate reptilian habits, much like the whales and porpoises, which are mammals, returned to the habits of their fish ancestors”. This theory may in fact arise simply because of an incomplete fossil record so should be discounted somewhat.
3. The "Primitive Bird" Theory proposes that modern birds might display some residual habits of the ancient birds from which they evolved, thus providing a trace of their ancestral lineage. We might therefore expect modern birds to retain some behaviours of ancient birds because their practical benefit has been retained over evolutionary time. Allen (1925) suggested that the megapodes might therefore be linked to the alligator on such a basis.

The author implies that these theories are contradictory, and ‘confusing’. But in fact they are entirely realistic and compatible. They conflict only with the theory of Creationism, which conflicts with all human knowledge since ‘faith’ is acceptance of assertions without evidence. Christianity requires its believers to renounce their minds, and to trust in cunning manipulators who want their money. Christianity rests on the willingness of a person to renounce their mind. Ask yourself why facts are scarier than some arbitrary assertions. Because these churches promise ‘unconditional love’. This is why people are ultimately drawn to it. It’s not a better argument. Its a philosophical need to evade facts because they result in value judgements the ‘believer’ cannot accept. There is no convincing them unless they can confront their psychological flaw. That is not to say that all are flawed. If they are young and have not yet challenged Christian arguments, they might well grow out of their ambivalence.
The author goes on to say that evolution is only a theory, or ‘speculation’. The only reason evolution is a theory is because humanity has no direct ability to observe it in action. We can model the concept by grafting plant species and alter the genetic code to achieve new species, but we cannot directly prove evolution. But actually that is no obstacle because we have an immense body of indirect evidence which integrates into knowledge.
The author states: “Attempts to explain design without a Designer, creation without a Creator, intelligence without an Intelligent Being bestowing that intelligence. It can't be done! The notion that the earth requires a designer simply displaces the burden of proof. Firstly it presupposes a ‘starting point’ for the universe, and hence that a designer was required. As previously indicated, isn’t it less miraculous when things actually act according to their nature? If we were the centre of God’s plan, why would he wait 20 billion years for universe to mature after the Big Bang? Why not just conjure up a world where the illogical is possible? That would be a miracle; not cause and effect.
The author even challenges ‘God’s work’. “Why evolve such a largely difficult method? Why lay 35 eggs in different places at different times?” Firstly I’m glad he asked the question. But I am equally concerned that he never sought to answer it. Is his plot self-delusion or manipulation? I did finally get my answer when I went looking for the ‘Plain Truth’ Magazine. Here are the answers:
1. Truth is not asymmetrical – if you are prepared to challenge science, also be prepared to challenge the alternative hypothesis – which is God, using the same scientific vigour.
2. Difficult habits – It does seem unfathomable for a bird to invest so much energy to keep the nest warm, and attend to so many nests, but consider the environmental conditions and the historical context. The bird is vulnerable to attack from predators, so the bird manages as many nets as he can. I would suggest the animal derives a sense of efficacy by doing this. Only a single nest can be attacked, and it one is threatened he can still attend to the others. The nests are far enough apart to elude the predator, but not so far that the fowl cannot reasonably attend to them. Fortunately most predators will hunt during the ‘cool’ of the day. Remember that there are two ‘parent’ fowls.
3. Universal context – consider the context in which this author is arguing the point. He focuses on an animal which is special or controversial in order to cast doubt over all science. That is what you might call an ‘asymmetrical perspective’ whether its nature is delusion or deceit.

It is amazing how solutions come to mind if you take pride in solving questions, as raising them. This is the nature of such asymmetrical thinking. So what came first? His mental ambivalence or his scepticism. I would suggest normally they ‘evolved’ together, though this document is written by a person who should have known better, so I have another more tragic explanation.
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Andrew Sheldon www.sheldonthinks.com

Creationism wisdom - will it never die (part 1)

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Here is some creationist nonsense camouflaged as science. It raises some interesting points though so I thought it was worth applying some critical thinking to the content. This material was produced by the Worldwide Church of God – they had a publication called ‘The Plain Truth’. Often you find with these exotic churches that they use science as a leverage to find new recruits. Basically its a case of 90% upfront logic, 10% baseless assertions or fallacy. For that reason I don't need to repudiate all of the content, but rest assured I will be repudiating the premises purporting to support Creation because they are baseless.
So lets run through the content of this 14-page essay.
It's far more logical, far more scientific, to see the overall 'pattern' in the reproduction of all living things as a 'master plan of design'. The very fact of embryonic beginnings looking similar is 'proof' of 'one great mind' who thought out all life.
Actually its not. Its important to understand that the intelligibility of the world is a consequence of things having certain characteristics, which cause though things to act in a certain way. The fact that things act in accordance with their nature is logical. If they acted anyway, that would be a 'miracle', so it seems the Christian folk are playing both sides of the table.
Embarrassing as it may become — "Which came first — the chicken or the egg?"
This is easy enough to answer - both the chicken and egg came before in the same way that chicken and eggs will come in future, and just as we appreciate when we graft a tree, both the seed and the apple came first, and will come after the fact. Evolution is not a historical fact, its an ongoing one. We did not create it in a laboratory, we have for the past 15,000 years been part of the process, and we are taking our influence to the next step, to out-conceptualise what you might imagine to be God, but is really just commonplace wisdom for those with focus and commitment.
Source: http://olliverlyle.com/Science/Creation/megapode.pdf
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Andrew Sheldon www.sheldonthinks.com

Saturday, October 3, 2009

Arguments against evolution

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Richard Dawkins has done a good job dispelling arguments against evolution in this article. Read his arguments from creationists about the evidence against evolution at Newsweek.

Actually reading the newspaper today, apparently there is new evidence suggesting a further link between chimps and homosapiens called 'ardipithecus ramidus. He is neither a human nor a chimp, but something in between. You can read this story at the NZ Herald. The evidence grows for evolution whilst there is no evidence against. No creationists can find evidence against evolution. There are no misplaced fossils. From creationists however we are already getting the rationalisation that the Bible is just a story to depict ethical principles, and not a factual document.
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Andrew Sheldon www.sheldonthinks.com

Wednesday, September 23, 2009

False profits of Creationism

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There are few scientists who still retain a belief in creationism. This might be regarded as evidence enough that creationism needs no further consideration. I care to differ. Science is not a democracy. It only takes one thinker to be right, and often its a critical thinker who goes against the majority.

DNA EVOLVED BY CHANCE? - Watch the best video clips here
Here is a video by a scientist against Evolution. Interesting he is not identified by name, he does not identify as a Christian, he does not identify as a Creationism, nor does he pose an alternative explanation. His argument that Evolution is Stupid appears to be based on the fact that:
1. Humanity is not at the top of the evolutionary chain. He rests this argument on the belief that complexity is synonymous with 'higher' or 'intelligent' life forms. I would suggest that is a weak argument. Life only needs to become intelligent if its life depends upon it. Humans are surviving with 42 chromosomes, so why do they need 100 (like a carp).
2. Common evolution: There is no evidence to suggest that humanity developed from the same ancestor. I actually agree with his statement here. There is no necessity for all life forms to share a common lineage, though there does need to be a sequence or progress from simple to complex. This is why its probable that humanity shares a common lineage, but its not a requirement. It in no way supports any argument against evolution though.
3. Common building blocks: He suggests that the reason why we can eat other life forms is because of common DNA. I reject that. Plenty of poisonous plants I cannot eat. The fact that we come from a pool of 20 amino acids is not relevant.
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Andrew Sheldon www.sheldonthinks.com

Friday, August 14, 2009

The Universe - A justification for God

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People look at the magnificence of the universe, its expanse and complexity, and conclude that this is evidence of a God. I look at this reality and consider it justification for no God. Let's consider the evidence:
1. Science suggests that the universe is 20 billion years old, the Earth is 4.5 billion years old. Despite this Christianity is a very human-centric philosophy. I cannot argue that religion is consistent with science, whether astrophysics or human nature. Religion to me is a repudiation of everything I know. I can disprove every argument you can make about religion.
2. Grand design: The idea that the universe is a miraculous design, so there must be a designer. This ignores the reality that there was no conscious designer for the universe, it developed or unfolded as a result of its nature. i.e. The materials comprising the universe developed as they must, in accordance with their physical properties.
3. Creation. The argument that there must be a God, otherwise who created the universe 20 billion years ago. The origin of the universe is a speculative issue, however I would posit that the universe was never created; that it has always existed. I would assert that every 20 billion or so the universe goes through a 'Big Bang', or sometimes perhaps smaller bangs. I don't think the universe has the uniformity in its evolution as posited by physicists.
4. Motive: A human-centric God as the maker of the universe and humanity is dubious when you consider the requirement for God to be so patient. He would have to wait 4 billion years for the Earth to form, and 20 billion years for the universe to develop before he could have created humanity. It seems more probable that he does not exist, and Christians are ignorant idiots.
5. Causation: The idea of a God defying all the natural laws that drive every other physical entity is another basis for driving a peg through the Christian hypothesis/'scare model'. The Christian philosophy is a repudiation of human nature, as shown elsewhere.

For a greater appreciation the smallness of humanity in the context of the universe watch this video clip. I recommend it not to show how small you are. You are very important to you, and to anyone who values you. You cannot detach the value from the valuer, which it was Christianity asserts. You are not intrinsically good. You are good for reasons....as determined by a thing which has the capacity to value, whether your pet dog, a presidential nominee, or your wife.

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Andrew Sheldon www.sheldonthinks.com

Tuesday, January 20, 2009

Evidence for evolution and against creationism

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If you want evidence that the earth is more than 6,000 years I suggest you study geology. There is so much evidence for a protracted history for Earth - it begs belief. Let me start:
1. Geological principles of cross-cutting rock structures
2. Process of sediment to rock maturation - we can observe rocks deposited up to 7,000 metres think without deformation, so they must have been layed down. We can observe typical speeds of deposition.
3. Dating of radiometric isotopes in rocks, ice core. Not just one isotope but a plethora of them from different rocks, each of which tells a story that integrates with the rest.
4. Tree rings alone can be 6,000 years. But there are also tree fossils preserved in rocks which can extend the sentiment history even further. Afterall x number of rings in a rocks must be at least X times older than the rock in which it was found, and they take a lot of compression & heat to mature sediments into rocks.
5. Lake sentiments recording the annual deposition of snow-melt related muds.
6. The massive global database of rocks around the world - empirical veracity
7. The movement of hot spots - eg. Hawaii has left a trail of volcanoes which tell us the age, distance, speed of movement
8. The movement of continents - magnetic reversals from spreading centres
9. Direct observation of geological events. eg. Frequency of meteorites.

Given more time I will think of some more. But lets stack the Bible up against science. They don't so much argue that science has contradictions, but that there is gaps in science. Its not surprising or a concern that there should be gaps. The important issue is that assertions are based on evidence. So let's look at the Bible.

Evidence of strange mystical powers? The Bible and other sources showing that people paralysed in fear by experiences they didn't understand in a pre-science era.
Evidence to refute such assertions. Given the Bible was written by disciples of God, contradictions in the Bible and its philosophy highlight its flaws. This blog is all about those, so don't waste any time.

I would leave you with another point. There is no reason to believe there was actually a starting point for the universe. I would contend that the universe has never started, that it has changed forms, but it has never come or gone in or out of existence. For that reason, I assert that the universe has always existed and always will. I would argue that the formation of the universe as we know it 24 billion years ago was actually just the start of a cycle, and that there has been an infinite number of such cycles.
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Andrew Sheldon www.sheldonthinks.com
Attention all atheists!!
In fact anyone who has had an interesting encounter with a Christian which involved manipulation, deception or blatant rationalisation. This is research or material for a forthcoming book. I am not suggesting that all Christians are criminals, dangerous or threats to society, but I am suggesting that Christianity is a basis for moral inefficacy. There is a reason why Christian nations are always at war. There is a reason why former Christians (or children of Christians) have a tendency to drift into cults and extreme religious groups. Thank you for any life experiences you can recall. ----------------------------------------------- Andrew Sheldon www.sheldonthinks.com